Saltvandsforum.dk

nielsk skrev: søn 23. jun 2024 00:13 Det lyder spændende! Kan du ikke hjælpe os med mere oplysning og personlig erfaring

Seniorreefer skrev: søn 23. jun 2024 21:32 Når du beskriver flad kurve.

Hvad taler vi om af min/Max værdi over dagen, dokumenteret ?
Har det en betydning, på ens koraller, når andet system allerede kører mere eller mindre perfekt.

Ja, udsving er blevet mindre fra bund til top, samtidig er min ph generelt stigende.

Har du et billede af før/efter brug af metoden på samme koral, eller er der dokumenteret videnskabeligt grundlag for forsøget.

Nej, det har jeg ikke. Jeg laver sjældent billeder i akvariet.

Er der garanti på den nye metode ikke dræber skrøbelige Acropora Tenius arter, når den anvendes, eller dumper man alt KH i blinde, og håber det bedste.

Selvfølgelig er der ingen garanti, det er der ikke på nogen af de metoder der anvendes.

Det er så nemt at sige en metode er det nye mirakel middel, men det er ikke producenten som betaler Eks. 100000kr i døde koraller, hvis metoden nu ikke virkede over tid

Helt enig, derfor har man jo også et valg selv, der er ingen der siger dette er det eneste det dur.

Årsagen til jeg spørger er:

Personligt har jeg i mange år hørt den ene metode efter den anden, men i bund og grund er det bare Hans-Werner Balling metoden i nye fåreklæder, og mange har ikke engang dokumenteret virkningen. Ingen videnskab over, bare marketing.


Den hypede Moonshiner metode, Modernreef, Triton osv osv, Balling Light, Gammel Balling metode, ny Balling metode , allforreef, reef4all jeg kunne næsten blive ved med nye metoder.

Ja, der er mange meninger og metoder, derfor vælg det du tror på.

Ps. Har set filmen, og af en eller anden årsag kan man kun anvende FM Balling light til metoden, og der hopper filmen af og den bliver kommerciel

Dette er ikke korrekt, Claude siger det virker med Balling Light fra FM, han siger også at det virker med alle andre natriumhydrogencarbonat tilsætninger. Han tager afstand fra at komme med anbefalinger af og/eller fraråde andre "mærker"
Det kan få fatale følger, hvis man prøver med karbonat eller hydroxid.
Kun bikarbonat kan anvendes.
Årsagen til den øgede vækst mv. er at alt karbonat er tilstede når lyset starter det samme gælder for halogene sporestoffer og så det faktum at der kommer mere lys på de første 2 timer.
Men alle skal selv overveje for og imod. For dem som har det bedst med det de kender og hvor tingene fungerer, kan jo bare blive ved det.
Selv har jeg ikke rigtig noget highend acropora, mit akvarie er domineret af mange alt for store fisk.
Men der er efterhånden rigtig mange der er skiftet til metoden, det hele er jo nyt, så man kender selvsagt ikke langtidseffekten.

This is Just one reefers opinion

Dear all,

I saw a video about bolus dosing by Fauna Marin (in german). The idea there is to dose the whole dose of KH in the morning 30mins before lights on and then start the light directly at 120% to then decrease throughout the day. The idea is to get a pH boost right at the beginning of the day. FM says this is only possible with their balling light system since it contains bicarbonate which avoids precipitation compared to carbonates.
I was just wondering, why it would be superior to other systems as long as you have a high pH throughout the day?
Has anyone heard about this method or tried it already? They say there is no need for sodalime for the skimmer or kalkwasser anymore because it boosts the pH enough. Their mentioned target level is >8.2.

Kind regards,
Dominik

Seniorreefer skrev: man 24. jun 2024 05:31 Jeg kan godt se ideologien.
Prøv at vende den om til at der tages en teori som er helt anderledes end naturen, derefter påstå uden dokumentation mere vækst, mere farve bedre pH, name it, uden at have undersøgt det og lagt billede dokumentation

By reference:
IMG_1529.jpeg

charlie saltvand skrev: man 24. jun 2024 07:11 Her er en LANG tråd på reef2reef om emnet. (22 sider).
Husk det er primært Amerikanere der udtaler sig, som vi alle ved er de fleste af den ikke rigtigt kloge (jeg tænker på at de stemmer på Donald…)
Men, der er lidt guldkorn i nogle af indlæggene.
Randy F H har IKKE meget fidus til metoden.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bolus ... 04/page-22

Heyyy

I am shocked that a company puts out such utterly and grossly incorrect ideas. They need to send someone at the company to study chemistry before spouting nonsense.

I’m on a phone now and it’s hard to write long passages, but surely such misleading info deserves a long and detailed response.

Instead of trying to respond to words on a video, I’ll respond to this document from FM which contains lots of incorrect facts. I’ll copy sections and respond to them in upcoming posts:

https://www.faunamarin.de/wp-content/up ... 5_24__.pdf

When the Bolus is dosed there is an adjustment made to the carbonate chemistry in your tank, this is using a completely natural phenomenon where the bicarbonate dosed is converted to a small amount of carbonate but a large amount of carbonic acid. The effect of this is to increase the pH, but the alkalinity will not go up as far as you might expect.

so many conceptual problems with that.

The first is easily verified by ANY reefer: add bicarbonate and pH drops a small amount. Not the pH rise they say.

As to the alk claim, that is so obviously wrong even if the false claim about making lots of carbonic acid is correct.

That process is;

HCO3- + H+ —> H2CO3 (carbonic acid)

That is obviously a net neutral process as it relates to alkalinity. The alk on the left is zero (+1 for bicarbonate and -1 for H+) and is zero on the right (carbonic acid has exactly zero alk).

In reality, one can look at a graph of the speciation of the carbonate system components as a function of pH to know how much of each us present, and what any added component, such as bicarbonate) will turn into at that pH.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjerrum_plot
Such a graph is called a Bjerrum plot
And one can see that unless the pH is starting well below 7.5, there is more carbonate than CO2/carbonic acid, and thus the added bicarbonate turns more into carbonate than carbonic acid. That net conversion to carbonate is also net alk neutral, but lowers pH

HCO3- —> CO3- - + H+

if you have been previously dosing kalkwasser or high pH carbonate solutions, it will take extra time for the Bolus to settle down, this is the process of rectifying the damage that has been done to the buffer system. The Bolus will heal that damage over time, this can take a number of weeks, maybe months.

Hogwash. That damage is purely a figment of their advertising manager. It has absolutely no basis in reality.

As noted in the Bjerrum plot above, all components of the carbonate system are determined exactly by pH (determines the ratio of them all) and total alk (determines the absolute values of them at fixed ratios).

The components come into equilibrium as fast as the additives mix into the water. It takes far less than a second to equilibrate them.

I have no idea where they got this damage idea or what process they are imagining takes months.

A ‘broken’ buffer system?
If your tank has been using high pH dosing solutions based on carbonates or hydroxides there
is a good chance that your buffer system may be in a poor condition. When your buffer system is not working properly there can be the following indicators:
The tank is unable to maintain a good pH without constant dosing of the high pH additive.
Try not dosing your alkalinity or kalkwasser and observe the pH, if the tank is unable to maintain a reasonable pH then you may have an issue with your carbonate buffer system.
If you are dosing a high pH additive but the pH is no longer being raised. This is a common issue with long-term use of Kalkwasser

I have no idea where they got this fantasy from, but none of it is remotely true for the reasons outlined in the previous post.

Presumably they use meaningless words like broken to disguise the fact that they cannot actually describe the problem in a scientific way.

The Bolus method is a viable means of ‘repairing’ your carbonate buffer system. This happens over time and slowly re-builds the carbonic acid pool allowing the tank to regulate the pH chemistry without the need for high pH additives.
Hydroxides tend to have the worst effect as carbon dioxide/carbonic acid is taken up directly by the hydroxide and forms a carbonate ion. Constant depletion of the carbonic acid pool by regular dosing of high pH solutions will cumulatively reduce the amount of carbonic acid available to the buffer system and cause instability in the equilibrium, causing constant re-balancing. Ultimately the buffer system fails to perform
the task of absorbing changes in pH leading to, in extreme cases, a pH crash and
often tank failure.


Carbonic acid is not an important driver of buffering or pH stability unless the pH is very low. Buffering if normal seawater above pH 7.5 is dominated by the bicarbonate/carbonate buffer system, not the carbonic acid/bicarbonate system. I have an entire article on the buffering if seawater, but in short, the closer you are to the pH of equal concentration of the two parts if the buffering pair, the more effective is the buffering.

The bicarbonate/carbonate pair has equal concentrations at pH 8.9, and the carbonic acid/bicarbonate pair has equal concentrations at pH 5.8. Thus, at any pH above 7.35, the bicarbonate/carbonate system dominates, and at pH 8.0, the buffering from carbonic acid/bicarbonate is very small.

Suroma skrev: man 24. jun 2024 14:29 Lækkert med nogle synspunkter, og lidt aktivitet på et ellers sommerdødt forum
Som jeg forstår det, er Randy HF meget uenig i kemien omkring det. På det punkt er han sikkert stærkere end mange andre.
Men det er stadig et faktum at en del akvarister siger de oplever en god effekt, mig selv inkluderet.
Det bliver spændende at se hvor det bevæger sig henad....
Jeg vil også lige nævne at jeg ikke bruger Fauna Marins kh, men den fra Henry (Aquafair) Dette er Natriumhydrogencarbonat.

Suroma skrev: man 24. jun 2024 16:21 @Seniorreefer
Jeg ved godt du bruger Balling Light som supplement til din kalkreaktor, men hvorfor egentlig?
Havde det ikke været bedre at bruge kalkwasser som supplement. Netop kombinationen reaktor og kalkwasser ophæver nogle af de ulemper der er ved hver især.

@bobstark6712
3 weeks ago (edited)
B-Ionic 2 Part, released in 1995, always had on its label (and still does) that you should add the entire dose in the morning just before or at the same time the photoperiod starts, when system pH is at its lowest. The alkalinity component consists of a blend of both carbonate and bicarbonate salts (along with other major, minor, and trace elements including the halogens in amounts sufficient to balance proportionally with the sodium and chloride that accumulates with use). The product was formulated with a carbonate:bicarbonate ratio sufficient to jump start an increase in pH immediately upon addition yet not as severe an increase as dumping in sodium carbonate or saturated kalkwasser at the start of the photoperiod. For systems that ran at high pH which usually meant heavy kalkwasser use or a large reverse daylight macro algae refugium, we released B-Ionic Calcium Bicarbonate system where the alk component consisted of all bicarbonate. Over the years sales slowly dropped to the point where we discontinued it because keeping a higher system pH became more the norm in the hobby. Many systems run successfully on just B-Ionic 2 part being added in one dose just before or at the same time lights come on. See Mike Paletta’s book Ultimate Marine Aquariums..many were using B-Ionic as one daily dose as was my “Bare Bones Reef” which appears in it. When more precise dosing pumps became available, some reef aquarists started dosing the amount they were adding in one dose but spread out slowly over the full 24 hours. The result was more stable alkalinity which resulted in some improvement in growth, but the original one dose at beginning of photoperiod method still works fine for many systems.

Suroma skrev: lør 6. jul 2024 11:38 Min pH med Bolus. Jeg bruger ikke scrubber eller lign. trækker luft til skummer udefra.
Før kunne pH sagtens falde til 7,8 om natten og max. 8,2 om dagen.
Det er lige før jeg er nødt til at sænke den kunstigt med syre el. lign.

Seniorreefer skrev: lør 6. jul 2024 16:49

Suroma skrev: lør 6. jul 2024 11:38 Min pH med Bolus. Jeg bruger ikke scrubber eller lign. trækker luft til skummer udefra.
Før kunne pH sagtens falde til 7,8 om natten og max. 8,2 om dagen.
Det er lige før jeg er nødt til at sænke den kunstigt med syre el. lign.

Sikke en flot PH graf. med bolus og spændende observation
Ting som jeg synes er vigtigt her er følgende, for ligesom at danne sig et overblik. og hoppe på vognen

1.Hvordan ser grafen ud med KH, ift. PH. (Mængden af KH optag og level over dagen)
2.Hvilke ændring har du gjort med lys, Tidsperioden og spectrum
3.Hvorledes så PH og KH ud, inden du begyndte metoden.
4.Nyere PH probe og nydelig kalibring ( Ældre og ikke kaliberet kan vise en del forskel.) (Inden jeg selv kalibrerede PH lå jeg i samme område uden Bolus)
5.Visuel Dokumentation af koral, før og efter metoden taget i brug.
6.Tidspunkt for doseringen af KH som kan ses på grafen.

Som jeg ser på din graf ligner den, som mange andre grafer med en stigning af PH i perioden med fotosyntesen. Din PH stiger med den generelle 0,15-0,25 i PH, i perioden fotosyntesen for derefter at falde igen. Jeg kan ikke se en voldsom stigning.
Her ser jeg spændende ting på din graf.
ph_Bolus.jpg


Her er min daglige KH efter kalibrering:
Daily DKH_No_Bolus.jpg

Min PH før Kalibrering.
Before.png

Min PH efter Kalibrering.
After.png

Lad os se om der er hold i påstanden omkring Bolus skulle være et mirakelmiddel, eller bare marketing