Kan en kirurg tåle ferskvandsdyp!?

[MoG]

Pga. mine omtalte problemer med baljen i øjeblikket, slog det mig om fiskene kan tåle et hurtigt ferskvandsdyp?

Min sejlfinne-kirurg /Zebrasoma veliferum har fået rigtig mange hvide pletter/parasitter og gæller meget! Kan den tåle det? eller er det døds-stødet?

Eller hjælper det overhovedet???

[wtfdic_dk]

har du overvejet hyposalinity?

[MoG]

må vist lige google..

[wtfdic_dk]

Hyposalinity is a very effective treatment for parasitic conditions such as Marine "Ich" (Cryptocaryon irritans.) and can also be used to lower stress in fish.

What is Hyposalinity?

Hyposalinity is adjusting the salinity of the water to somewhat less the that of natural sea water. "Hypo" comes from Greek and means under or below. For the treatment to be effective the salinity needs to be lowered to 12-14‰ which is equivalent to a specific gravity of 1.009 (d20/20) at normal tank temperatures (26-28°C - 79-82°F). Normal sea water has a salinity of 35‰ (Gross, 1977).

How does it work?

For the treatment of "Ich", hyposalinity works by breaking the life cycle of the parasite. The lower salinity may also reduce stress, although there is no hard evidence to date to support this.

C. irritans is a ciliate protozoan found in sea water and it has a number of stages in its life cycle. Infective stages burrow into the skin and gills of the fish and form a protective outer covering of skin. Here they feed on tissue fluids and skin and grow. When mature, the parasite breaks out of the cyst and after some time as a free-swimming form encysts on any suitable substrate such as the sand or rocks and divides many times to produce the infective forms (Colorni, 1987). The infective forms must find a suitable host or they will die.

The total time from the mature parasite detatching from the fish and reinfection of the fish is about 2 weeks at normal tank temperatures. This is why "Ich" may appear to clear up but then comes back a a week or so later but a lot worse.

The low salinity causes the most of the tomonts to rupture, killing them

Marine teleost fish (higher bony fishes) maintain their osmotic concentration at about one quarter to one third that of sea water. In normal sea water, these fish have a tendency to lose water from their gills due to osmosis and also in their urine. Fish have to drink a lot of water to make up for the loss, however, as the water contains a lot of salt (35‰) they must remove the excess salt from their system. The sodium and chloride ions are secreted by the gills and magnesium and sulphates are excreted in urine. This is an active process and requires energy much like the energy required to keep warm blooded animals warm.

When fish are under stress, one of the processes that is affected is ion regulation. This means they have difficulty adjusting the concentration of ions (sodium, chloride, etc.). Lowering the salinity of the tank water makes the concentration of ions closer to that of the fish"s internal fluids and reduces the fish"s efforts to maintain the correct concentrations.

Please note that only the higher bony fishes have lower osmotic concentrations and can be treated this way. Marine invertebrates have the same osmotic concentration as the surrounding water (Schmidt-Nielsen, 1975) and if left in the aquarium during hyposalinity treatment are most likely to die due to osmotic shock. Sharks and rays may not survive hyposalinity due to their unique method of osmoregulation. They have similar concentrations of salts to that of marine teleosts (one quarter to one third that of sea water), however, they also have very high concentrations of organic compounds which gives their internal fluids the same osmotic concentration as sea water. While some can adjust to lower salinities, most will succumb to osmotic shock just like invertebrates.

Where do you treat?

The first choice you must make is whether to treat in the main display tank or in a quarantine tank. The main display tank can be treated if it is "Fish Only" and contains no invertebrates or live rock. The live rock itself will survive the treatment, but any invertebrates living on and in it will be killed. If the tank is truly "Fish Only" treating the tanks is probably the best option as there will be less stress to the inhabitants and it helps you to eliminate the "Ich" in the main tank.

If the main display tank is "Fish Only With Live Rock", it may be possible to move the live rock to another tank and treat the main tank, but in most cases and when the tank is "Reef" tank, removing the fish to a quarantine tank is the only option.

When a quarantine tank is to be used, it is wise to fill the quarantine tank with water from the main tank when the fish to be treated are moved. This will help reduce the stress of the move and alleviate the acclimation process. It may still be necessary to acclimate the fish if time has passed from when the water was transferred and the fish are transferred.

How do you treat?

It is very important that you can accurately measure the salinity or specific gravity of the water. Cheap hydrometers, especially the swinging arm variety, do not have enough accuracy. If the salinity is too low, it is possible the health of the fish will be compromised. If the salinity is too high, it may have no affect on the parasites, as discussed above. A refractometer is the safest method for measuring salinity. If you don't have access to a refractometer, a lab grade floating glass hydrometer should suffice.

The goal is to granularly reduce the salinity of the water to between 12 and 14‰ and leave it at that salinity for at least 4 weeks but preferably 6 weeks. Basically continue the treatment for at least 4 weeks after the last spots disappeared.

The salinity must be lowered gradually to give the fish time to adjust to the lower salinity and more importantly ensures the bacteria in the biological filter can adjust. It should take around 2 days to get from 35‰ to 14‰.

Your starting point should be between 1.025 and 1.027. Replace about one fifth of the volume with RO, RO/DI or aged freshwater that has been well aerated. Repeat this 12, 24 and 36 hours later, monitoring the specific gravity along the way. After the fourth water change the specific gravity should be 1.010 or pretty close. Wait a few hours to make the final adjustment to get down to 1.009. Note that you can estimate the resulting specific gravity. If you are changing one fifth of the water and the current specific gravity is 1.025 the result will be:

((1.025*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.020 approx.

Then, after 12 hours:

((1.020*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.016 approx.

After 24 hours:

((1.016*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.013 approx.

After the 4th change:

((1.013*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.010 approx.

Water temperature influences specific gravity and if you heat water without changing the salinity the specific gravity will decrease. As the goal is to keep the salinity between 12 and 14‰ it is important to know the temperature as well as the specific gravity.

What temperature should you use? Some people have argued that raising the temperature is good because it speeds up the life cycle of the parasite. While this is true, the elevated temperature also raises the metabolic rate of the fish causing increased oxygen and energy consumption and somewhat negating the benefits of the hyposalinity. Temperatures close to "normal", those the fish are used to, will be the best. Ensure the temperature is taken into consideration for the specific gravity.

While the fish are being treated it is extremely important to closely monitor the pH and specific gravity. Unless you are treating in a well established tank with an established biological filter there will be a tendency for the pH to drop and this must be monitored. This can also happen in an establish tank due to the lower salinity. If the pH starts to drop, water should be changed or buffer very carefully added to the system. If the fish are sick, too rapid changes in pH will not be beneficial.

The specific gravity also must be monitored as excessive evaporation will cause the salinity to rise and possibly create suitable conditions for the free swimming parasite. If the salinity does rise, it may be necessary to extend the length of the treatment after the salinity has been lowered again.

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

When the treatment is complete, the salinity should be raised gradually to normal over a number of days. Water changes with normal or even high salinity water is the easiest way to get the salinity up. Calculations using averages, as before, can be used to determine the appropriate specific gravity of the replacement water. If you replace one sixth of the 1.009 water with water at 1.025, the specific gravity will be raised to 1.012:

((1.009*5)+1.025)/6 = 1.012 approx.

As the salinity approaches normal it will be necessary to either replace more water in each change or use water with a higher than normal salinity. If you have been treating in a quarantine tank, you will need to leave the display tank with no fish in it for at least 30 days. This will ensures that all remaining parasites in the tank have gone through their full life cycle and the infective forms have died.

If you have been treating in the display tank, you should wait some time before returning any invertebrates or live rock to ensure that the biological filter has had time to adjust to the salinity and load.

Warnings

Invertebrates, sharks and rays cannot tolerate low salinity and should be removed from the tank.

Temperature affects specific gravity and must be considered.
pH can drop during treatment and must be monitored.

Summary

Isolate the fish from any invertebrates or sharks and rays
Lower the salinity to 12-14‰ (specific gravity: 1.009 @ 27°C) over a 72 hour period
Closely monitor the pH and specific gravity
Do regular water changes with low salinity water
Keep the salinity at 12-14‰ (specific gravity: 1.009 @ 27°C) for 4-6 weeks, or at least 4 weeks after the last disappearance of the "Ich".
Raise the salinity to normal over a 3-7 day period.
Leave an untreated display tank fishless for at least 30 days.

[MoG]

jeg løb det lige hurtigt igennem.. virker umiddelbart lidt omfattende. må lige læse det ordentligt senere..

Dvs . et ferskvands dyp har ingen effekt på parasitterne?

[wtfdic_dk]

det har afaik ingen effekt på Ich.

" This freshwater dips are effective for a few parasites such as Amyloodinium and turbellarian flatworms. They are generally not effective for Marine "Ich".

The dip should be performed in a bowl or dish, just deep enough for the fish. Distilled, Reverse Osmosis or Reverse Osmosis/Deionised water should be used. It is a good idea to aerate the water for 30 minutes or so to ensure it has sufficient oxygen. Some processed water can be a little low on oxygen. The temperature of the freshwater should be as close as possible to the temperature of the tank water. The pH of the freshwater should be as close as possible to the pH of the tank water. Add a small amount of baking soda (around half a teaspoon) to the water and mix well. This will add some bicarbonate and carbonate to the water which will help with the pH.

Place the fish in the freshwater for around 3 minutes. Make sure the fish does not get too stressed and if it shows signs of extreme stress, remove it immediately. After 3 minutes put the fish back into the tank or into a quarantine tank if you have one.

For fish with Amyloodinium, the freshwater dips will only provide a temporary solution and treatment with Cupramine in a separate treatment tank is recommended. For fish with turbellaria (AKA "Black Ich"), the freshwater dip should be repeated twice at 3 day intervals.
"

http://kortlink.dk/bkbe

[Thue]

Kan godt følge dig meeeen enten et fersk vands dyb eller hypo er altså ikke bare lige noget man hopper ud i sådan videre, det er rigtig mange ting du skal læse og sætte dig ind i for ellers dræber du fisken hvis du bærer dig forkert an. Og hva skulle det så nytte, hvis du gjorde det hvor ville du sætte fisken hen bagefter, for kommer den tilbage til det akvarie hvor den kom fra så er der jo stadig parasitter der og så står du med samme problem om 2 dage.

Du skulle hellere tage og få styr på dit vand, så fisken ikke stresser sådan i dit akvarie.

[permadsen12]

Jeg havde 2 mikro-paletter som jeg gav hvidløg blandet i deres mad. Det er mit indtryk af at det virkede kortvarigt, selv om de endte med at dø.

Jeg tog et fed knust hvidløg som jeg blandede med ganske lidt akvarievand og frosne hummeræg i et æggebæger. Efter det havde trukket lidt, hældte jeg det hele i baljen (alternativt kan du smide det i en lille sigte. Hummer æggene er små nok til at smutte igennem sigten, og så undgår du hvidløg i baljen). Hvidløget sviner selvfølgelig en del, og med frostfoder gør du muligvis også din situation værre. Jeg havde på det tidspunkt kun hammer-koraller, som ikke virkede generet af hvidløget. Jeg ved ikke hvordan andre koraller evt. reagere på det.

Min oplevelse var, at pletterne i de 4-5 tilfælde jeg fik var væk dagen efter. De vendte dog hurtigt tilbage, og som sagt endte de med at dø.

Så hvis du ikke får styr på dit vand, er det nok kun en begrænset effekt du kan få af det.

Måske man kan bruge noget tørfoder istedet for frost.

Om det virker ved jeg ikke med sikkerhed, og det er ihvertfald på egen regning og risiko.

Under alle omstændigheder - held og lykke med det hele.

[MoG]

Jo tak. Jeg overvejer stadig om jeg skal prøve et hurtigt ferskvands dyp imorgen.. jeg har ikke så meget at miste. Jeg tænkte at den måske kunne få parasitterne af og måske komme lidt oven på! Ved godt det kun er en stakket frist, men det kunne jo være at lige nøjagtig de to parasit fri dage, kunne redde den?

Det der er lidt spøjst, er at da den kom i svømmede den rundt og ÅD LØS med det samme.. og virkede rigtig hjemmevandt i baljen.. Der gik flere dage før den begyndte at hænge med mulen.. Der var kæmpe forskel på paletten og sejlfinnen.. sejlfinnen åd som sagt lystigt, mens paletten slet ikke spiste og gemte sig hele tiden.,. havde slet ikke regnet med at sejlfinnen skulle blive dårlig! Den så ud til at have det mægtigt

Det med hvidløgen kunne jo være en mulighed også... som sagt så er der ikke meget at miste. De to klovne og kardinalen ser dog ud til at stortrives!! indtil videre...

[JaizEdelmann]

Hvidløg i maden og ned for salinity har virket for mig en enkelt gang i hvert fald

[permadsen12]

Hvordan har kræet det, og har du gjort noget ?

[MoG]

Jeg nåede desværre ikke at prøve.. Ville prøve dagen efter jeg spurgte herinde, men næste morgen var den død. Men det var desværre som forventet...

[permadsen12]

[boner]

næste gang tager du en halv pennecilin pille og blender den i en kop vand og hælder den i baljen det har jeg gjort før hen med susces

[PederP]

næste gang tager du en halv pennecilin pille og blender den i en kop vand og hælder den i baljen det har jeg gjort før hen med susces

Et lille sidespring. Fik de nogensinde lavet om på den lov der forbød salg af "medicin" til akvarister?

[hung h]

Mallen.dk er stoppet med at handle med medicin, så mon ikke at loven er indtrådt.

http://mallen.dk/medicin,186.html

[boner]

gem en næste gang et familie medlem har halsbetændelse

[Thue]

næste gang tager du en halv pennecilin pille og blender den i en kop vand og hælder den i baljen det har jeg gjort før hen med susces

Den her må du meget gerne uddybe lidt mere Hva for noget pennecilin bruger du og hva virkning mener du det skal have ? tænker fordele og ulemper

[Monica&Jacob]

Den ide kom lige tids nok for os.
Vores kære japaner kirug har altid været lidt ramt af pletter, men altid været frisk og spiseglad.
i dag var den så helt ramt af pletter, vi har taget vores lille indbyggede fragment-akavaie i brug som afslapnings plads.
samt kæresten som er sygplejeske har behandlet den med pensilin, (pancillin 1mill. IE ) skulle være en kraftig ver.
den har nu fået en hel pille. til de 12 liter vand som fragtanken er på.

tog lige et billede af fisken inden behandlingen. så må vi se om den klare den. Er 100 på den ikke ville havet overlevet så længe uden vi havde gjort noget.

[Hr. C]

Hmm, kunne en pudserreje ikke deltage lidt i festen her?

[wtfdic_dk]

Hmm, kunne en pudserreje ikke deltage lidt i festen her?

hjælper ikke ifølge videnskaben.

[boner]

Den ide kom lige tids nok for os.
Vores kære japaner kirug har altid været lidt ramt af pletter, men altid været frisk og spiseglad.
i dag var den så helt ramt af pletter, vi har taget vores lille indbyggede fragment-akavaie i brug som afslapnings plads.
samt kæresten som er sygplejeske har behandlet den med pensilin, (pancillin 1mill. IE ) skulle være en kraftig ver.
den har nu fået en hel pille. til de 12 liter vand som fragtanken er på.

tog lige et billede af fisken inden behandlingen. så må vi se om den klare den. Er 100 på den ikke ville havet overlevet så længe uden vi havde gjort noget.

hvordan går det med den idag ?

[Hr. C]

Hmm, kunne en pudserreje ikke deltage lidt i festen her?

hjælper ikke ifølge videnskaben.

Videnskaben ?
Ved det ikke men mine rejer er flinke til at pudse kirurgerne, hvis der er lidt udvendige parasitter. Om det er omsonst skal jeg ikke kunne sige, men det er vel egentlig formålet med henh. pudserfisk og rejer, at netop denne opgave er deres hjemmebane...

[Monica&Jacob]

desværre var det ikke nok.
virkede som pillen, afstressede fisken lidt og bedøvede den.
men efter 24 timer var den væk. tror den simpelhen var blevet for svag til at overleve.
har en ide om at pillen måske ville have hjulpet lidt, da det så ud til de hvidepletter var aftaget efter ca 12 timers kur.

i test akvariet var der fragmenter af både montipore, blødkoraller og polypper. som alle er uden tegn på forgiftning af pillen.

alt i alt.

ØV

[Carsten]

næste gang tager du en halv pennecilin pille og blender den i en kop vand og hælder den i baljen det har jeg gjort før hen med susces

Hvad skulle det hjælpe?? Parasitter tages da ikke med penicillin.

Er det noget du selv har "opfundet" eller noget som andre også har prøvet med held?

[Fyensgade]

Penicillin virker absolut ikke mod parasitter.. Det angriber et protein som bakterierne bruger til at danne cellevæggen - det protein har parasitter ikke.. Du får desværre ikke engang en placebo-effekt, for fisken forstår nok ikke at den bliver medicineret

[Fyensgade]

Og i øvrigt så er det meget vigtigt at fuldføre hele sin penicillinkur uanset om man føler sig rask igen! Så "boner" hold fingrene fra den penicillin dine familiemedlemmer får udleveret

[wtfdic_dk]

penicillin virker kun på bakterieinfektioner var også min første tanke. men fiskene dør sikkert af sekundære årsager (åbne "sår" fx.) så ideen er sikkert ikke helt dårligt, måske!

lign diskution
http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showt ... p=18790576

det er dog ikke videnskablig dokumentation.

ellers er det: kobber, hyposalinity el. quinine sulfate der virker mod ich (i karantæne tank hvis reef)

[Fyensgade]

Der er sikkert en lille effekt, men det var mit indtryk at det er parasitinfektionen i gællerne der er dødsårsag? Derudover så rammer penicillin/erythromycin jo dine bakterier som sørger for at omsætte næringen i akv..
Hvis det virkelig var effektivt så tror jeg for længst det ville være standardbehandlingen istedet for de omstændige kobber/hypo/3-day-transfer som ikke kan udføres i DT..

[wtfdic_dk]

Der er sikkert en lille effekt, men det var mit indtryk at det er parasitinfektionen i gællerne der er dødsårsag? Derudover så rammer penicillin/erythromycin jo dine bakterier som sørger for at omsætte næringen i akv..
Hvis det virkelig var effektivt så tror jeg for længst det ville være standardbehandlingen istedet for de omstændige kobber/hypo/3-day-transfer som ikke kan udføres i DT..

jo sikkert den primære årsag, men fiskene inficeres ofte af flere omgange, så måske antibiotika kan hjælpe fiskene "komme sig " over skaderne/infektioner og være bedre "rustet" på næste angreb.
men så var det nok en del af den anbefalede praksis, hvis effekten var markant nok.